#1  
Alt 05.05.2021, 03:01
plvcolin plvcolin ist offline männlich
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Standard Johan Stoderl

Die Suche betrifft das Jahr oder den Zeitraum: 1805-1825
Genaue Orts-/Gebietseingrenzung: Zetschen (Cecin) or Cham Bayern
Konfession der gesuchten Person(en): Catholic
Bisher selbst durchgeführte Internet-Recherche (Datenbanken):
Zur Antwortfindung bereits genutzte Anlaufstellen (Ämter, Archive):


Hello again!

Ich bin Amerikaner. Appreciate the help reading gothic script.

I am looking for the birth record of Johan Stoderl. I believe he was born about 1818. He is the son of Georg Stoderl und Margaretha Lang. I originally thought he was born in Zetschen (Cecin)...however on 1869 census...he is listed as being from Ghom (Cham?) Baiern. I have searched Zetschin book and have not found him. I am hoping one of you can find him.

Danke Sehr!
Colin

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...2&w=1373&h=543

https://www.portafontium.eu/register...ad-radbuzou-13
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  #2  
Alt 05.05.2021, 09:04
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Huber Benedikt Huber Benedikt ist offline
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Good morning
I really think the origin of Johann is Cham /Bayern just opposite the border.
Cham is diocese Regensburg and unfortunately the parish books of this episcopate are not published yet.
So either you´ve to wait until they will publish (start of digitalization is promised in 2021) or somebody may look in the archive in Regensburg personally when they open again.(they are closed now cause of the corona disease)
So I fear you´re blocked in the moment
__________________
"Back to the roots" heisst nicht daß man mit zunehmendem Alter immer kindischer werden muss !
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  #3  
Alt 05.05.2021, 21:58
tfndh tfndh ist offline
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Georg's death entry in Zetschen No. 7: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...54&w=632&h=259
Ausnehmer = retired farmer

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...85&w=528&h=217
In this babtism entry for his son Michael in 1806 his wife is Margaretha Frascha(?) from Liebeswar/Libosvár. The entry on the next page maybe also belongs to him. The fathers name is Adam, but the mother and the house is the same.

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...-6&w=529&h=217
In 1848 Barbara, a daughter of Georg has a child in Černá Hora. Her mother is Margaretha Lang from Troschelhammer.

It looks like Georg moved to Bavaria some time after 1806. His first wife died and he married again. Later he moved back again to Zetschen. I don't see any death entries for his first or second wife in Zetschen.

Did you recognize that Johann was a widower at the time of his marriage with Elisabeth Trüber?

Geändert von tfndh (05.05.2021 um 22:45 Uhr)
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  #4  
Alt 06.05.2021, 05:05
plvcolin plvcolin ist offline männlich
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Zitat:
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Georg's death entry in Zetschen No. 7: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...54&w=632&h=259
Ausnehmer = retired farmer

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...85&w=528&h=217
In this babtism entry for his son Michael in 1806 his wife is Margaretha Frascha(?) from Liebeswar/Libosvár. The entry on the next page maybe also belongs to him. The fathers name is Adam, but the mother and the house is the same.

https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...-6&w=529&h=217
In 1848 Barbara, a daughter of Georg has a child in Černá Hora. Her mother is Margaretha Lang from Troschelhammer.

It looks like Georg moved to Bavaria some time after 1806. His first wife died and he married again. Later he moved back again to Zetschen. I don't see any death entries for his first or second wife in Zetschen.

Did you recognize that Johann was a widower at the time of his marriage with Elisabeth Trüber?
No, I did not know. Do the records say he had a 1st wife?

It is too bad Regensburg is not yet digitalized. I'm sure it will be someday. I am reconstructing this family solely based on records. Nothing is remembered in the family about them.

Thanks again for helping,
Colin
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  #5  
Alt 06.05.2021, 05:06
plvcolin plvcolin ist offline männlich
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Good morning
I really think the origin of Johann is Cham /Bayern just opposite the border.
Cham is diocese Regensburg and unfortunately the parish books of this episcopate are not published yet.
So either you´ve to wait until they will publish (start of digitalization is promised in 2021) or somebody may look in the archive in Regensburg personally when they open again.(they are closed now cause of the corona disease)
So I fear you´re blocked in the moment
I trust your judgement. Will have to wait for digitalization.

Thanks again,
Colin
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  #6  
Alt 06.05.2021, 17:54
tfndh tfndh ist offline
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Zitat:
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No, I did not know. Do the records say he had a 1st wife?

It is too bad Regensburg is not yet digitalized. I'm sure it will be someday. I am reconstructing this family solely based on records. Nothing is remembered in the family about them.

Thanks again for helping,
Colin
The death entry for his first wife: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...24&w=667&h=262
Cause of death is Brand (high fever).

I found his entry in the Grundbuch: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...=3&w=644&h=262
He inherits the house from his deceased wife Elisabeth. The other heir is her mother Katharina Weniger. The house belonged to Stephan Weniger (+ October 28th 1844).
There is a reference to their marriage contract: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...62&w=548&h=225
Elisabeths maiden name is Mähner. It says Johanns father Georg is present when the contract is signed on January 20th 1844. So the death entry in Zetschen in 1842 isn't him??

There is also a marriage contract with Elisabeth Trüber: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...13&w=447&h=183
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  #7  
Alt 09.05.2021, 06:56
plvcolin plvcolin ist offline männlich
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Zitat:
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The death entry for his first wife: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...24&w=667&h=262
Cause of death is Brand (high fever).

I found his entry in the Grundbuch: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...=3&w=644&h=262
He inherits the house from his deceased wife Elisabeth. The other heir is her mother Katharina Weniger. The house belonged to Stephan Weniger (+ October 28th 1844).
There is a reference to their marriage contract: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...62&w=548&h=225
Elisabeths maiden name is Mähner. It says Johanns father Georg is present when the contract is signed on January 20th 1844. So the death entry in Zetschen in 1842 isn't him??

There is also a marriage contract with Elisabeth Trüber: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...13&w=447&h=183
Wow, this is interesting stuff. Can you provide a rough translation of the Grundbuch and marriage contract?

The 1st Elizabeth's father was Mähner...and mother was Katharina Weniger? Was Stephen Weniger a brother? Is there any clue to where 1st Elizabeth is from? Perhaps I can find record of her marriage to Johan.

Very strange about Georg Stoderl. I wonder if it's a different Georg? Perhaps a nephew?

Thank you for all of this extra research.

Colin
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  #8  
Alt 10.05.2021, 01:22
tfndh tfndh ist offline
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Zitat:
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Wow, this is interesting stuff. Can you provide a rough translation of the Grundbuch and marriage contract?

The 1st Elizabeth's father was Mähner...and mother was Katharina Weniger? Was Stephen Weniger a brother? Is there any clue to where 1st Elizabeth is from? Perhaps I can find record of her marriage to Johan.

Very strange about Georg Stoderl. I wonder if it's a different Georg? Perhaps a nephew?

Thank you for all of this extra research.

Colin

There is a marriage entry: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...56&w=987&h=402

Elisabeth is the illegitimate daughter of Katharina Mähner. Stephan Weniger is her stepfather. The house actually belonged to her mother. Elisabeth inherited the house from her grandparents Joseph Mähner and his wife Katharina according to her grandmothers testament (Grundbuch p. 163).
The most important points in the marriage contract are: Johann's father Georg is paying a dowry. Elisabeth is commiting the house to her husband.
Equally in the contract with Elisabeth Trüber. Elisabeth's father is paying a dowry. In case Johann dies without children the house will go to her.

I think it's possible that there is a confusion about Johann's father by the writer. The contract is only signed with "Stoderl groom's father".

I'm not really convinced by the Cham-theory. In the census the first two letters are "Gh", but the ending does not look like "am" if you compare it with the "am" from Adam. For me it looks something like Ghend. Maybe it's a misheard "Kemnath". This would match Johann's mother being from Troschelhammer Landgericht Kemnath.
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  #9  
Alt 10.05.2021, 04:17
plvcolin plvcolin ist offline männlich
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There is a marriage entry: https://www.portafontium.eu/iipimage...56&w=987&h=402

Elisabeth is the illegitimate daughter of Katharina Mähner. Stephan Weniger is her stepfather. The house actually belonged to her mother. Elisabeth inherited the house from her grandparents Joseph Mähner and his wife Katharina according to her grandmothers testament (Grundbuch p. 163).
The most important points in the marriage contract are: Johann's father Georg is paying a dowry. Elisabeth is commiting the house to her husband.
Equally in the contract with Elisabeth Trüber. Elisabeth's father is paying a dowry. In case Johann dies without children the house will go to her.

I think it's possible that there is a confusion about Johann's father by the writer. The contract is only signed with "Stoderl groom's father".

I'm not really convinced by the Cham-theory. In the census the first two letters are "Gh", but the ending does not look like "am" if you compare it with the "am" from Adam. For me it looks something like Ghend. Maybe it's a misheard "Kemnath". This would match Johann's mother being from Troschelhammer Landgericht Kemnath.
Probably not Ghent Belgium . I will have to wait until parish records are available for Torschelhammer and Cham. Thank you for your judgement. I wouldn't know where to begin.

I never knew any of this. Very interesting. I'm surprised how fast Johan remarried. His 1st wife dies in March 20 and he marries his 2nd wife May 13! Different culture back then.

Is George Stoderl listed as a witness for the 1844 marriage?!? Very strange.

Thanks again for the help,
Colin
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  #10  
Alt 10.05.2021, 07:21
tfndh tfndh ist offline
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Zitat:
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Is George Stoderl listed as a witness for the 1844 marriage?!? Very strange.
It's not Georg Stoderl but Georg Sandner. He also signed the marriage contract (2x) as Georg Sandner Namenschreiber (name writer) and Georg Sandner Richter in Altsattl und Zeug[e] (judge in Altsattl and witness)
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